In the third and final part of the Jibril Interview series, head of the National Forces Alliance, (NFA) and former prime minister during the revolution, Mahmoud Jibril, about his past with Gaddafi and his future plans for post-revolutionary Libya based on his party’s ‘2025 Vision’.

What is the fate of 2025 Vision?

Still lying in drawers.

Do you intend to implement it if you come to power?

In the third and final part of the Jibril Interview series, head of the National Forces Alliance, (NFA) and former prime minister during the revolution, Mahmoud Jibril, about his past with Gaddafi and his future plans for post-revolutionary Libya based on his party’s ‘2025 Vision’.

What is the fate of 2025 Vision?

Still lying in drawers.

Do you intend to implement it if you come to power?

Certainly. We must translate it into an action plan. NFA’s action plan – part of which was presented to GNC – is derived from the 2025 Vision.

Does it still carry the same name (2025), or has the elapsed time – about four years –affected the anticipated time set for its implementation?

All that is required is to bring certain figures up-to-date, because the project ended in 2008. This means that we now have a three-year gap and we must review the figures to ascertain whether or not they are still the same. The vision presented three possible scenarios at the time. This in itself was a daring action.

The first scenario was that the regime would continue with the current situation of political impasse, and lack of reform and development. This would ultimately lead to the end of the regime. This is stated in the planned vision.

The second scenario was that the regime might resort to superficial rather than concrete reforms. This would again bring the situation back to the first scenario, and result in the end of the regime.

The third scenario was that a genuine political reform would be achieved, with a constitution, complete political changes, and real development. This would extend the regime’s life, but it was not implemented.

What about the doctoral dissertation you prepared? Does it not praise Gaddafi? It has a text that says Gaddafi’s character was influenced by both Gamal Abdel Nasser and Prophet Mohammed?

The dissertation paper was about the U.S. foreign policy towards Libya and the text is a quotation from Mohamed Hassanein Heikal’s book. I said some people described him as such and such and put that between quotation marks. But some Libyans take things out of context, saying: “Look what Mahmoud Jibril has written!”

I say this book should be translated into Arabic and publish it to refute all the slanders put on Facebook and in the media, alleging that my dissertation paper is about Gaddafi, and that it is all about the glorification of Gaddafi. The paper says Gaddafi acted as a CIA agent from early 1969.

Are you now convinced of that? Do you really believe that Gaddafi was a CIA agent?

Up to this moment, I am not convinced that a 17-year-old man had the ability to set up such a complicated and elaborate organization. There are several question marks yet to be answered regarding this matter. What interest did the CIA have in discovering 28 coup attempts from December 1969 to 1976 and reporting all of them to Gaddafi? All those coup attempts were discovered by the CIA, except one, which was discovered by the Mossad, and reported to Gaddafi by the Italian Intelligence Service.

What interests did the Americans have in informing Gaddafi about those attempts? Afterwards, he went on TV and other media sources to say ‘the imperialists want to topple me’. He spoke of the Americans and the US conspiracies, while the opposite took place. In the first coup attempt, he was awakened by the US  Ambassador Larry Palmer, at 3 a.m. to provide him with a list of 32 persons who conspired against him, including Adam Hawwaz and Moussa Ahmed.

Why do those who speak about Mahmoud Jibril’s dissertation paper not publish this? The former regime was stupid and did not read, although the paper was available and published by the University of Pittsburgh. Besides, this book is still taught in American universities. If you want to tell the truth, then say the whole truth and leave it for Libyans to judge. The fact is that I used that quotation to explain a certain thing. It is a quotation taken from Heikal’s book entitled “The Initiative Discourse.”  When I quote something from a book, I often use it as a “testimony” for something I want to prove, unless I use something to the contrary in the context of the discussion.

I said Gaddafi’s character was looked at from different angles. I spoke about Marcela Bianco and talked about Reagan who said Gaddafi was a lunatic. I also talked about Heikal who described him as a combination of this and that.

When I quote something from a book, I often use it as a “testimony” for something I want to prove, unless I use something to the contrary in the context of the discussion.

Talking about the 2025 Vision leads us to the question of whether or not you proposed dialogue with the other parties and considered your political opponents, especially those with whom you share several aspects related to this vision?

On July 8, 2011, I sent an invitation to initiate national dialogue. I repeated that invitation several times. I also contacted the main parties—at least 7 or 8 parties. I recall that my invitation was made last Ramadan. We booked a hall in Al Mahary Hotel in Tripoli after nightly prayers, and the dialogue was supposed to start at 11 p.m.

Although we sent written messages and contacted the invitees by telephone, none of them turned up: Justice and Construction Party, National Front Party, Homeland Party and Union for the Homeland Party. Only Mr. Ali Zeidan, head of the Homeland for Development and Welfare Party, and Mr. Ali Tarhouni, head of the National Centrist Party (NCP) attended.

Did NCP sign the NFA Charter? You called for voting for it at the constituencies where you did not have lists.

Yes. Its political concepts were close to ours. Tarhouni told me he had signed the charter.

With regards the question of dialogue, there is no other alternative for Libyans except to accommodate each other. The Libyans agreed to reject Gaddafi, but the worst thing is not to accept each other, which will be disastrous.

Will you be in office long enough to implement 2025 Vision?

If the vision does not fit, I call any government to adopt any real development program that aims to end oil-dependence in order to secure a decent living for future generations.

Sixty-five to sixty-seven per cent of Libyans are young. They need jobs, education, housing and marriage. These are real needs, and any person destined to lead the nation in the upcoming stage must present and personally lead such a program.

NFA is not keen to lead on its own. We have presented the program, and any party can amend it and include additions to it. It just has to offer something to Libyans, and we will be happy with that.