In the second part of our interviews with iconic politician Mahmoud Jibril, he defends his Gaddafi-era role, the risks he took for his defiance of the former dictator and his take on political isolation.

You say political isolation must be directed at behavior rather than individuals. Would you explain?

In the second part of our interviews with iconic politician Mahmoud Jibril, he defends his Gaddafi-era role, the risks he took for his defiance of the former dictator and his take on political isolation.

You say political isolation must be directed at behavior rather than individuals. Would you explain?

Libyans can refer to minutes of meetings of the Planning Council, of which I was head, from 2007 to March 2009, which is an advisory council rather than a technical or legislative one. Let my statements be compared to those who claim to have opposed Gaddafi.

Courage is not when you are outside Libya insulting or criticizing Gaddafi; it is rather when you dare to openly criticize and oppose the regime from inside Libya.

During two years of service in the Planning Council, I did not receive a dime as salary. Let them refer to the records of the council and to the financial controller.

Why did you refuse to be paid a salary?

Because this position was imposed upon me without my consent and my name was announced on television. I turned down this job and stayed in Egypt for 42 days as an objection. The decree was issued on January 22, 2007, but I did not take the oath until April 1, i.e., after three months of struggle and disobedience, when I was promised by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi that my resignation would be accepted in the coming General People’s Congress (GPC), which was scheduled in September 2007.

My resignation was rejected four times. Go back to the history of the Libyan state under Gaddafi, you will find that the only written resignation was mine.

I am talking about real actions. Let these actions be compared to those showing off today saying that Mahmoud Jibril was a supporter of the regime. Let my behavior be compared to those during the seminars glorifying Gaddafi and his son Saif, where he was called the leader and the Commander of the Faithful.

Never in the meetings of the Planning Council did I send a letter to Gaddafi. At that first meeting in Sabha, I was the only person who did not stand up when Gaddafi entered the hall.

Where did this courage come from?

It was not courage. I was looking for a reason to make them throw me out.

Do you believe that every individual should have refused to work for the regime? Did you not believe that there was hope of reform?

I was thrown into this. You can ask Khaled Ghwell, who was the undersecretary of planning at the time. My last resort was to make a deal with Saif Gaddafi—this is documented, and Ghwell has a copy—stating that when I refused the job, we reached a compromise that I would not occupy any other position for a whole year on the understanding that I would finalize my contracts outside Libya and make arrangements for my family in Egypt, and then, after a year, we could discuss my ability to occupy a position.

At that time, they brought me in a private plane, but I did not know why I came back to Libya. The plane was sent to Dubai since I was in Sharjah. Witnesses to this are Mohammed Abdulmuttalib Houni and Abdulrahman Karfakh, Saif’s bureau chief.

I received a call after Friday prayers in Nour Mosque in Sharjah. I was asked, “Where are you?” I replied, “At the following place.” They said, “Engineer Saif wants you immediately for an urgent and important issue.” I thought it was a security matter. I flew for seven hours until I arrived at two in the morning to find out that the following day was the GPC meeting. Thus, we played cat and mouse for four hours straight.

Did you meet with Muammar Gaddafi during that period or afterwards?

I only met with him alone once and that was after Saif and Baghdadi Mahmudi failed to keep their promise, refusing my resignation for three consecutive times.

When was this meeting?

In 2009.

Was the 2025 Vision ready?

Muammar and Saif knew nothing about the 2025 Vision.

This means that you worked on the vision alone with no direction from anyone?

I worked on it alone despite their orientation, because when the Planning Council was imposed on me, I wanted to do something for Libyans.

In the second part of our interview series with iconic politician, Mahmoud Jibril, the NFA head defends his role in Gaddafi’s government, the risks he took in his consistent defiance of the former dictator and his plans for Libya’s future.

Part of the project that was present was related to methodology. I participated in the economic “Oman’s 2020 vision” and I was part of the advisory group, responsible for the initial deliberations before launching Egypt’s 2030 vision with the Al-Ahram Center For Political & Strategic Studies and the Center of Future Studies.

But when I knew that the Planning Council was imposed on me, I had to exploit this for the interest of Libyans. Therefore, I started to bring Libyan expertise from various Libyan universities and we began to put a developmental vision for the country out of my belief that at least when a new regime – serious about change and development – takes over the rule, it would find an available actual work.